The Art of Interviewing Henry Kissinger
James Fallow interviews Jeffrey Goldberg of “The Atlantic” on his interview with Henry Kissinger
James Fallow interviews Jeffrey Goldberg 11/11/2016 Screengrab from video at: http://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/507182/interviewing-henry-kissinger/
Link to video on “The Atlantic” (*)
One of the things that motivates him is his relentless desire to convince you that he is right.
That his record, if properly understood, is that he behaved well. He defended American interests well. He was not responsible for the perfidious things that his critics claim he’s responsible for.
Discuss the “view of the long arc of evolution and American policy…”
Henry Kissinger does not believe that the moral arc of the universe is long, but bends towards justice. Kissinger believes that one of Obama’s key faults is that he divorces power from diplomacy. But when the President is arguing about credibility that American deterrent credibility is overrated as a concept, as a tool. This is a shot at Kissinger, who of course, in the general understanding of Vietnam came in with Nixon realized that he had to ramp up the war in order to end the war. President Obama finds the logic of that… the logic escapes him, let’s say.
By the way, the single most interesting part of this to me is the historical echo that I heard that John Kerry over the last two years had been going to President Obama and saying “for the sake of our credibility we have to bomb Bashar al Assad. We have to put real military pressure on the Assad regime and that will get them to come to the negotiating table.” And the President is saying “No John, we are not going to do that. Don’t you remember Kissinger?” That counts as heavy.
President Obama and Henry Kissinger, former Secretary of State. Photo credit: Dennis Brack/Pool/Sipa Press/secpotusipa.004/1011190005
What if Obama had “involved Kissinger more” in the last 8 years?
There is more Kissinger in Obama than Obama would acknowledge. And there is more Kissinger in Obama than Kissinger probably knows. What Kissinger would have told Obama is that we don’t have yet a proper understanding of where China envisions itself. And they don’t understand us either. He points out in the early 70’s that he went to Beijing secretly. There was nothing to talk about, there was no bilateral relationship, and so all they did was talk about their theories of history.
Now when an American President meets a Chinese leader there is so much to do from cyber to trade to South China Sea to everything that is on the agenda. We are talking about practical stuff all the time, so you might have to carve out a lot more time than you’ve carved out and you have to have serious high end conversations about the way the world is organized because you are the guys who are going to decide how the world is organized.
Kissinger advice to the President might be? Long view towards China…
The reality is that China for 11 of the past 13 centuries has been the most powerful country on earth. It is about to become, at some point in the future, somewhere on par with the United States in terms of global power.
He would say to the President of the United States: understand how they understand the world. Other countries are mere tributaries of the essential kingdom.
You don’t have to accept that as a moral principle. You have to accept that as the reality of their perception of the world. It’s easy and satisfying to say we should spend a lot more time arguing for Tibet (and I agree with that… like we should stand up for what’s right), but this is the realpolitik – the amoral realpolitik – acknowledge their greatness, acknowledge their own understanding of their greatness, and figure out a way to keep the earth stable. And you are the two parties that can keep the earth stable, so deal with it as it is and protect our interest, but not push us towards needless confrontation.
My transcription above from video at “The Atlantic” interview
(*) The embed of the video isn’t working – use link to see video.
Other reference:
Wikipidea on definition of realpolitik
Realpolitik: a system of politics based on a country’s situation and its needs rather than on ideas about what is morally right and wrong.
Realpolitik of Henry Kissinger in “der Spiegel” in 2013
Jeffrey Goldberg articles in “The Atlantic”
Jeffrey Goldberg becomes editor-in-chief of “The Atlantic”